World at risk

[drewzilla652]

The US has become the laughinstock of the world. Bin Laden's greatest recruiter has been reelected. The environment doesn't matter, world opinion doesn't matter, separation of church and state doesn't matter. I'm embarrased to be lumped in with all the dumbasses who voted for this clown, and frankly don't understand how, as the Daily Mirror in London put it, "How can 59,054,087 People Be So Dumb."
For my kids sake, let's hope these next four years are relatively unspectacular on a number of fronts. But I doubt this will be the case. We're fucked, I'm ashamed, and I want to move away. Does that make me unAmerican? Well being American ain't what it was 11/12/01. Anti-american scentiment is everywhere.
Here's a good editorial that sums it up; attached below. Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

[CptPlanet]

As ashamed as I am to be an American, I'm inclined to urge people to stick it out and hopefully right the wrongs to some degree during the midterm elections. I've thought about it, I've decided that moving to Canada is sort of a selfish and chickenshit thing to do. If we can't at least regain control of the house in 2006, and if it looks like the Dems are going to fuck up again and put someone like Hillary Clinton on the ticket, then you can jump this sinking ship.

Of course I have every expectation that both of those conditions will be met, so I guess if you wanna call things prematurely, more power to you.

Also, wrong forum. This should go in General Discussions.

[CptPlanet]

God damn, that editorial kicks ass. Did you write it? If so, I'm jealous.

[drewzilla652]

sorry I posted to the wrong place. I'm new here and wanted to vent somewhere.
The editorial attached is from the Daily Mirror. OK, OK, I know it's like the National Enquirer of Britain. But my thoughts are reflected well in the piece.

[CptPlanet]

Eh, no sweat about posting it to the wrong place. One of the mods will move it. Who cares where that editorial come from, the vitriol and anger rivals Hunter S. Thompson on a good day.

[Mang0]

That is quite possibly the most coherent thing the mirror has ever had printed amongst it's pages.

and just to put the record straight, the worst paper in the UK is 'The Sun'

Their headline,

It's George Double-ya!

article included such facts as,

'Mr Bush’s re-election was even welcomed in the Middle East.'
(I'll bet)

[agent_PUNT]

It's a well written article.

It is uneasy when people all over the world start thinking/saying "well the Americans deserve to get attacked now".... And make no mistake, people are saying that, outloud....not just thinking it... that's pretty heavy.


The biggest mistake Bush made in office was saying "you are either with us, or you are with the terrorists". Rational people saw that as a blatant error in thinking this issue was black and white. A rational person would never be able to see this as black and white, right vs. wrong situation... so it turned off alot of people who were looking back and saying "why did this happen to the Americans?"

Here's a cookie, get him in the backyard, show him the pool.

[i_hate_ponies]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!! %$&*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That somehow doesn't help.

Bush + Dick = %$#@ed.

[3v3+Z]

What the fuck does "%$#@ed" mean?

[Mang0]

I think it's an attempt at manners

[Treebeard]

I just now read the editorial.

Wow.

[agent_PUNT]

Originally posted by Treebeard
I just now read the editorial.

Wow.

I just read your post.

Yee-haw!

[Rabot]

Well, dispite the fact that everything else will get fucked up, I see Bush's election as positive for Iraqi's. Now all you guys are gonna kill me for this, cause most of you are those liberal nazis who think all conservatives (not that I am one, I swear!) should be shot. But in all honesty, the american media and it's people have almost no clue what is truly happening in Iraq and how they feel about it. Now before the firing squad comences, I want to leave you with a lovely picture that expresses how most Iraqis feel...I have more of these, but I only really want to post one...cause you'll probaly be dicks and make fun of them, and tell me how I'm just brainwashed by conservative media and shit:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Mandragore/34994777.jpg

[Stabby]

Originally posted by Rabot
I want to leave you with a lovely picture that expresses how most Iraqis feel...

How the fuck would you know how most Iraqis FEEL?

[Rabot]

Originally posted by Stabby
How the fuck would you know how most Iraqis FEEL?

Because I'm one of them (I don't mean a citizen though...but a lot of my family memebers still are).

[Stabby]

So as an Iraqi-decendent living in America(?) you have a psychic bond to every other Iraqi and know how much they all LOVE Bush for turning their country into a warzone, for making it unsafe for them to walk down the street, for creating a dramatically higher rate of terroism and kidnappings, for martial law, for ignoring or destroying their cultural and religous values/ideals/landmarks/artifacts?

So you're saying, for instance the civilans in Fallujah, are happy to pick up and leave their house or apartment and hit the road as a refugee with no job, no clear idea where they might go that was safe or when or if they can come back, and no idea if their home would still be standing or just a smoldering pile of rubble, or take the other alternative which would be to stay and face the very real possibilty of being shot to death? And that is something they are all okay with as long as it came with freedom being on the march and all?

[Rabot]

No psycic bond, though I do have a telephone, and talk to my relatives on a reqular basis...notice I said most, not all, I never said they love bush, but rather appriciate what are troops and bush are doing for them, and yeah, Fallujah is pretty fucked, but most of the people left because of the bathists who took hold there, I get sick just thinking of what they did to those who stayed.

Some parts of Iraq are the hellish warsone you describe, but not everywhere. Of course things are hectic right now, it's a war, but most Iraqis can look to the future, this period of unrest will end, and they will (hopefully) have thier freedom afterword. The Iraqi's have been waiting sence desert storm to be rid of saddam, and most are glad to see him gone. and as for

"ignoring or destroying their cultural and religous values/ideals/landmarks/artifacts"

Thats total bullshit, there is no ignoring going on, and any landmark/artifact destruction is the inevitble result of a war, and is not done on purpose, or out of recklessneccess, such destruction is avoided where possible, but it is impossible to avoid most of it.

[CptPlanet]

Originally posted by Rabot
Of course things are hectic right now, it's a war, but most Iraqis can look to the future, this period of unrest will end, and they will (hopefully) have thier freedom afterword.

Hahaha you probably actually believe that too! You're my favorite poster Rabot. It's also sort of funny how you accuse us of only believing what the American media tells us, because your post sounds a lot more like a Fox News report than a BBC report (or any other news organization from anywhere else in the world).

OH WELL AS LONG AS HE GETS ALL THOSE AL-QAEDA BASTARDS THAT ARE HIDING OUT IN IRAQ! AMERICA LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF THE BRAVE LUV IT R LEAVE IT FAGGIT!

[terris]

just because you dont agree with his opinions doesn't mean they are wrong

as soon as anyone around here says anything remotely right wing everyone is all over their asses

its easy to have alot of fucking opinions about whats going on in the world right now but its alot harder to respect those of other people

sure some of his opinions sound like right wing mainstream media bullshit, but that dont mean they are for sure. keep in mind rabot has relatives over there right now, so maybe he speaks some truth, maybe its all bullshit, either way he's in no way wrong for posting his opinion

[CptPlanet]

Yeah you're probably right. I'm kinda sick of screaming about politics on the internet anyway. We'll agree to disagree, Rabot... for now.

I hope your relatives stay safe and have a happy Thanksgiving.

[agent_PUNT]

This war was not about freeing people.

There are nations all around the world who's people are worse off than the people in Iraq where. So if America truly cared about freeing people, then they should have started elsewhere.

You are saying "the ends justify the means", but war should only be the means when all other options have been exhausted.

All other options were not explored.

I can make this claim. You know why?

Because a large amount of nations around the world refused to participate in this war because they thought it was unwarranted.
No one thought "these people don't deserve to be free", they simply thought "this isn't the best way to acheive freedom".

And I think that is the view that liberal people have.

We didn't believe that war was the route to be taken.

And if your justification for going to war truly was about freeing people, then don't say "well you liberals would have sat back and Iraqis would have died in torture chambers that Uday had set up while you tried more diplomacy??" Again, I'd remind you that this is happening all over the world, and the media is only reporting on it in Iraq. Just like how the only dog attacks you hear about are pitbulls.... you don't think other dogs are biting people?

Sorry Rabot, I do understand that the people want to be free, and I do think that we as rich nations should help accelerate that path to freedom, but I truly disagree that this war path was the best solution.

[agent_PUNT]

Originally posted by Rabot
Well, dispite the fact that everything else will get fucked up, I see Bush's election as positive for Iraqi's.

If you mean the re-election, than that would imply you think Kerry would have had a negative impact on the people of Iraq.

Kerry promised to bring the world together to help the people of Iraq, something Bush couldn't. I'm sure it wouldn't be simple for Kerry to do, but it probably would have been a positive for the Iraqi people.

I know I am harping on this, and I appreciate your openess knowing that you would get this reaction. I'm not dismissing your feelings.

[Stabby]

I have no doubt that there are people in Iraq who are glad Bush came along; I would just argue that it is not the majority. But that's why Iraq will have elections in January. (It is still scheduled for January isn't it?) I mean, Iraq will be starting at absolute zero as far as getting a ballot, registering voters, registering canidates...basically the entire election infrastructre needs to be established. In two months. I think the attempt at an election will be percieved as an obvious farce by a lot of Iraqis and when 2/3rds of a country dosen't agree with the outcome an insurgency becomes a civil war. And an insurgency and sympathizers represent the Iraqi people just as much as your very lucky family does.

i think it would be great if the majority of Iraqis loved us. We could get out of their much quicker. The senseless tragedy and death might slow up and stop. We might be able to train a sizeable Iraq army and begin to withdraw so we could focus on more real problems, like Iran (W said we cant allow them to get nukes but Powell says they're getting them. What to do, what to do? Think W wishes we weren't bogged down in a meaningless, unnescary war now?). We might put an insurgency to rest. We might stop blowing up hosptials and wedding parties. But we aren't, becasue they dont love us enough.

Thats total bullshit, there is no ignoring going on, and any landmark/artifact destruction is the inevitble result of a war, and is not done on purpose, or out of recklessneccess, such destruction is avoided where possible, but it is impossible to avoid most of it.

Well, to some extent. But the Pentagon was given a list, created by Iraqi acedemic experts and others, of over 4,000 places in Iraq that they should protect. Places like the National Muesum and many other cultural sites, and of that list, the only place that the US defended was the Oil Ministry. So I would not say that it is the INEVITABLE result of the war. I would say that we didn't give a shit but thats a far cry from "it was bound to happen"

EDIT:
I know I am harping on this, and I appreciate your openess knowing that you would get this reaction. I'm not dismissing your feelings.

Oh yeah I agree. I'm glad you expressed them because I don't get to talk to people with relatives in Iraq everyday so I hope you know I'm not trying to shout you down or anything and am interested in what you have to say. :)

[Rabot]

Oooo this is quite nice, I was expecting 20 reactions like the captians...anyway, I'm no conservative, and I'm no liberal, I kinda float inbetween, oh, and I hate political parties:p

Anyway, I'm not saying bush did it for the right reasons, I'm just glad he did it, in fact, I wrote an essay on that exact topic, bush is a douche, but I'm glad he's doing what he's doing in iraq regardless. My family is doing fine, no one has died, yet. And my grandfather is getting all of his stolen property back from saddam, which is a good thing. Bush sr should have taken care of this in desert storm. And about a more peaceful solution, the UN is incredibly corrupt and kofi annan's son, russia, germany, and france all had illegal oil rights, the blood of Iraqis is on thier hads, both from sanctions and illegal actions. Not that bush dosen't...

Anyway, I'm groing tired of politics and have a disexic fool trying to read over my shoulder, so I'm gonna go get drunk, later guys.

[3v3+Z]

Man, fuck Bush!

[CptPlanet]

That's a very interesting point you raise Steve.

[teengirlsquad]

Originally posted by agent_PUNT
Kerry promised to bring the world together to help the people of Iraq, something Bush couldn't. I'm sure it wouldn't be simple for Kerry to do, but it probably would have been a positive for the Iraqi people.

a-men, my man. of course iraq is better off without saddam hussein - thats a given. but f'in Bush is just a asshole cowboy trying to get revenge - he keeps the gun Saddam had when he was caught on his desk in the oval office?! how sick is that! bush doesn't give a damn about iraqis. he just wanted to smoke saddams ass under the guise of "freedom"

[drewzilla652]

I have to agree with teengirlsquad. Bush wanted Saddam. Poor planning leads us to the current f'd up situation. And while I'm ranting, the choice of Condy Rice as Sec'y of State is horrible. She's just a total hawk, who agrees with Bush on everything. She's a Soviet expert, for goodness sakes! That's not what we need. Bush seems more like a dictator than a president.

[Mang0]

Don't know if this was broadcast in the US but it's worth a look,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/3963147.stm